[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, welcome back to Lowbrow where we discuss, well, what some people consider to be low culture, but what we consider to be awesome. We're talking about professional wrestling and well, a comic book story that intersects in a neat way. I'm Daniel.
You know, you might know me as King Loki. I also edit Death Wish Poetry magazine and host the Demon Toast podcast. And with me are, well, two good friends of mine, Matt Tenhof, who is a, a professional writer
[email protected] where he writes about professional wrestling and different fighting competitions. Matt, do you want to talk about that for a sec?
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I basically just do some show reports. Every Tuesday, NWA every Wednesday, WWE Evolve, every Thursday, Impact and Ring of Honor. And Fridays I do Explosion for TNA as well. And when LFG comes back on Sundays, I will be doing LFG for WWE as well.
That's six days a week.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Six days a week. That's a lot of writing.
Yeah, he also writes short stories. We did publish him over at Death Watch.
Yeah, do check out A Happy Choice that was in our winter edition now. And with me is also my good friend Greg Beer Bauer, who is a huge fan of wrestling and you know, is a software engineer currently looking for more work. So I mean if you need a competent coder, this worked for Microsoft. So Greg, you want to talk about about what you do and who you are for like a second?
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Sure, yeah. I'm former Microsoft eve, currently freelance software engineer, currently working on a couple of projects.
One namely writing APIs for statistical work. So yeah, I'm available for more work. I'll put my GitHub there you go here sometime so you can look at my work and reach out.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: He's legit. He has a GitHub. It's super cool. Alright, so yeah, so money in the bank. That was awesome, wasn't it?
[00:01:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
I think my favorite part of that was Jacob Fatu betraying Solo. Cause I don't like that guy.
I was never a huge fan of the bloodline anyway. But I love the part where he just said I hate you. That was epic. But yeah, we're.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: He's, he's. He's like why? He's like why? He's like why? I thought there was gonna be like some deep reason. He's like, I hate you.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. The bloodline is, is. It's kind of funny that it doesn't seem to be much of a thing anymore. Matt, why do you think the bloodline went away?
[00:02:27] Speaker B: To be honest with you, it was you Know, it kind of culminated at that first Raw on Netflix back in January. To me, I thought it was just a tad bit rushed after all the years that they spent on it. You know, this started during like the COVID era when, you know, Roman. Roman Reign just completely took over and then added the USO's and the honorary ooh to, you know, Sami Zayn. And then when, you know, Solo kind of took over when Roman Reigns disappeared, you know, it just kind of. I expected it to be a huge WrestleMania match, to be honest with you. Roman Reigns versus Solo for the Ulafala. But instead they did it on Raw because they wanted that to be, and rightfully so, just this major mega event. But then it just kind of petered off and Roman Reigns, instead of kind of going and continuing this bloodline thing, he, you know, focused more on Seth Rollins and CM Punk, you know, so it definitely kind of just trailed off. In my opinion, Solo has been. Been for me, kind of fun. He's showing a lot more character lately after just being the Silent Assassin and Jacob Fatou kind of took over that Silent Assassin, you know, part of the bloodline. But yeah, now, you know, Solo just kind of talks Mac about him way too much. You know, the night before Money in the bank on smackdown, you know, Solo was caught talking that smack by Jacob.
So I think that just kind of sealed the deal where Jacob had to do what he had to do.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: You know, he had to proclaim his honor. That is so funny. Talking smack. Do you think that Roman Reigns was kind of pushed in an inorganic way? Like the fans just didn't like him and that's why they dropped the whole thing? Like, I don't know.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Well, not this time around when he first came to prominence. Absolutely. When. When he broke off from the shield.
What? I think about a decade ago now. Yeah, he was definitely getting shoved down the fans throats by Vince McMahon. I was actually at the Royal Rumble in Philadelphia when he won it.
I think it was like 2015 and the place just went crazy with boos. And they tried to bring out the Rock that night to like raise his hand and even that couldn't save it. They were still booing every. And this is pre WrestleMania 41 and 40 Rock too, by the way.
Yeah, 2015 where like, honestly, the Rock could just blink and he'll get a major reaction.
So that for sure 100% backfired on WWE since. Since Roman Reigns kind of started the bloodline, the fans really took to him, you know, and I give a lot of credit, honestly, to Paul Heyman. Because Paul Heyman is the one who, honestly, in front of the camera just made everything make sense. But also behind the camera made everything make sense, too. You know, he worked really hard to make that storyline have depth, and so the fans really took to him. And that's why, like, you know, I know Roman Reigns is not on TV right now, but when he does return, and it'll probably be like, leading up to SummerSlam, I'm guessing he'll get a major, major reaction because he. I think he's repaired what Vince McMahon did to him.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think McMahon's sensibilities aren't always the best. You know, the bloodline is something where, like, that feels legit. That feels like Roman Reigns, his job, you know?
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Greg, what do you think about Roman Reigns? Yeah, go ahead.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, well, even towards the end, it was like he was still called otc, but it was like almost he had no followers. Right. So it's like, who is he? Whose tribal chief is he? Other than Paul Heyman's tribal chief? That's all it really seemed towards the end. So maybe. I don't know. I've read some things that he's going to get more into acting, so I think that's why he might be taking some time off. And he takes a lot of time off, from what I understand.
Like, he lost at not this last WrestleMania, but the WrestleMania before that to Cody Rhodes. Right. And then he just disappeared for a while, which led to Solo kind of coming and making his new bloodline. And you're right, that match on Raw with him and Solo, I. I had just gotten back into watching wrestling, so I totally didn't understand what was going on at that time. Can look at it from two different perspectives now. Like, I'm like, what, like UTF is this when I first started watching that? Because that was my first Raw episode. But then looking back on them, I'm like, oh, that would have been really cool had I understood the context of it. But they. They had that match and they really didn't do anything with it. Right. They didn't really continue the bloodline story other than, you know, Roman Reigns saying, acknowledge me. Like, every time he appears in front of the crowd, they acknowledge him as the tribal chief. And, you know, Paul Heyman doing this and all those things. Roman Reigns, yeah. I think, like, he's still obviously one of the faces of the company. He was on the latest video game for wrestling, and I think he'll continue to be one of the faces of the company. It. It seems really crowded right now, though, so I think that's another reason maybe he disappeared to make room for the other storylines. So it will be really interesting to see how that develops. And then, likewise. We were texting about Goldberg yesterday.
I don't know. I'm not particularly excited about that match. I don't know how many people legitimately are, like, I don't know what Goldberg really has left. It would probably just look like a shitty pissing contest between Cena and Goldberg with a bunch of low blows mixed in and things like that, but it's just very crowded at the top. Roman Reigns is still very relevant, but he'll eventually come back. I don't know if SummerSlam is too soon, but he'll be back. Who knows? I think he might be just gone until the next WrestleMania, but maybe that's too long. So he'll definitely be back by then, but that might be a long time for him to be gone, but everybody will still remember him if he comes back by then.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Yeah. You mentioned, you know, wrestlers going from silent assassins to kind of, like, big players. Do you think. Is there any chance that Bron Breakker goes from being, like, this monosyllabic Hulk character to being, like, a real contender? Because right now, all he does is roar at the crowd and attack at Seth Rollins's command. I mean, I love it, but I'm like, you know, talented guy. I mean, just saying.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think that's 1000% the plan, him and Bronson Reed. Because, like, Triple H does not put somebody with Paul Heyman in today's WWE unless they have a major plan for them down the road. So Bron Breaker, I mean, when nxt, when he showed up in nxt, he was immediately thrust into the main event. And then he. He basically, like, you know, now that he's been, you know, on the main roster, he's been doing nothing but great things as well. So pairing him with Paul Heyman, pairing him with Seth Rollins, and then having Bronson Reed as the, you know, big Typhoon next to them. Major, major, major plans. You know, he's got the pedigree. You know, his father and uncle were wrestlers, the Steiners. You know, he does. He can talk. It's just that, you know, Paul Heyman's doing the talking right now and Seth Rollins doing the talking.
He is. He's the. He's the prototypical wrestler. You know, like, he just, like, when you look at Bronson Reed, like, you think wrestler, you know, like, even if I saw him in the street and had no idea who he was. I'd be like, is that guy a wrestler? You know, so, you know, he's, he's just one of those guys that I think, you know, he's young enough where he's going to probably dominate for like, the next 15 years. And I'm excited for that because I'm a huge, huge Bron Breaker fan.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Braun Breaker is awesome, by the way.
All this talk about Paul Heyman and how he, like, makes people into, like, superstars. Is he kind of like Galactus, where he shows up and like, his, his heralds always turn on him?
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Honestly. Yes. Yeah. 100%. And I mean, this kind of. I mean, this, this dates back to, you know, the 80s when he was doing this in WCW.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: And then like, even when he took over ECW and he was not on the camera too much in front of the camera, and he was just booking the territory and that's it. Like, his, his whole thing was like, hey, come into ec. I'm gonna let you be who you want to be. I'm just gonna kind of make minor tweaks. And he just kind of, you know, made stars left and right. You know, he's responsible for, like, the Dudley Boys and Rob Van Dam and, and Taz and all these, all these guys. And it's just because he just made minor tweaks to their character. And he's been doing that for WWE for a long time, too, both in front and in back of the camera, too. You know, the bloodline is really all him. You know, Brock Lesnar is really all him. Would say at least 80% of the ideas for those guys were Paul Heyman with, you know, Triple h and Vince McMahon. Just tweaking stuff here and there. But yeah, you know, Paul Heyman. I mean, like I said, if you want to make a star, you put them under the Paul Heyman learning tree. And.
And it usually works out pretty well.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a big fan of Paul Heyman. I love his on screen personality.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Greg, Greg, Greg. We were talking about Paul Heyman a lot recently.
[00:11:32] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, he's. I don't know, I, I watch wrestling almost for Paul Heyman. Like, I remember.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: He's awesome, ladies and gentlemen, you know.
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Well, yeah, a couple of things there. So I had watched wrestling probably towards the end of the attitude area era and then resting Logan and aj.
Are you ever gonna say anything nice about this man? The world champ?
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Good.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Kind of speechless right now because the aura this man has when he steps into an arena is insane.
Everybody is at attention.
The champ has arrived.
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Is in the.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Ring.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Into ruthless aggression when they did the branch extension. Still have some questions about the branch extension. Some things that kind of tripped me up or I don't really like. But anyway, in regards to Paul Heyman, yeah, when I first started watching him, he was with Brock LESNAR probably in 2002. And that's when, like, Brock was, like, unstoppable. He was like this force that just came out of nowhere, and he was just beating everybody.
And the one storyline I remember the most from that was when he. He screwed Brock at Survivor Series 2002, and he was facing the Big Show. And I'll never forget, Paul Heyman just pulls the referee out of the ring when he's doing the count. I had never seen anything like that before. And he throws, yeah, Big show the chair while Brock is distracted chasing him around. And then he runs back in the ring, the Big show hits him with the chair, and then he does a choke slam over the chair, and Big show wins the match. So a couple things about that. Yeah, Paul Heyman really is a career, like, starter and a reviver, because Big show always says, like, that whole storyline actually revived his career because he was kind of just like, upper mid card, kind of lower main event, like, just kind of treading water for a while. And then that whole storyline gave him a year of, like, at least of great rivalry matches with, like, Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar. I remember. So, yeah, I remember that with Paul Heyman. And then I watched briefly again in 2019, right before COVID and I believe he was with Brock Lesnar again.
And, like, I had tuned out for a while, so I was like, whoa, they repaired their relationship. I know they had repaired their relationship. Repaired their relationship for a while, but I was like, whoa, Paul Heyman's back. And that's when he. I started noticing he was doing the whole ladies and gentlemen thing because he wasn't doing that in 2002. But, yeah, he, like. I watched his biography on Netflix. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend it. I sent you that link, Dan, but I sent you, like, so many Paul Heyman links. You're probably overwhelmed. Yeah, working my way through it, ladies and gentlemen. Like, whenever I hear that, I know Paul Heyman's coming. And at the beginning of the biography, they actually all, like, they have a bunch of wrestlers, like, imitating the ladies and gentlemen.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: I need to watch that. That sounds fun.
[00:15:11] Speaker C: Awesome. Yeah, you gotta watch it. And, like, his. His story is really Crazy like his. I believe he said his mother was a Holocaust survivor, so it's really intense. But, yeah, he's. He's a great agent, manager, story writer, content developer, whatever you want to call him. Paul Heyman is the man. The only thing he can't do is actually do the physical implementation of wrestling, but everything else I'm pretty sure he can do.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: He'd fucking die.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah, he would.
I. I don't know if he's ever been F5 by Brock Lesnar before. I think he has. I don't know how he survived it, though. But, yeah, he used to have some crazy things happen to him, like stunners and F5. I think, theoretically, he knows how to take the moves to make them look realistic. He really does know a hell of a lot of things. He probably knows more wrestling than. He's probably forgotten, more wrestling than all of us know combined. But, yeah, he's. He's insane. Paul Heyman, I love that guy.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, AJ Styles seems to be part of that story, too, because, like, he rejected his. His offer of, like, power or whatever the fuck. He wouldn't take his hand. So who knows where that's going? Probably nowhere.
[00:16:26] Speaker C: But, you know, wasn't there an episode on Raw where Paul Heyman strongly suggested AJ Styles focus on the Internet intercontinental title or something? I guess, like, to remove him from it. But I. I don't know what they've done with AJ Styles. I'm really lost on that storyline, actually. I know he's older now, but he just doesn't seem to get the same love that other older wrestler Cena seemed to get. And I. I get it. With Cena, he was chasing. I think he's only, like, relevant because he was chasing that.
That historic mark. And everybody knows Cena, he's like an actor, so they wanted to give that to him. This whole storyline, this whole retirement, like. Like this is called. It says, roll out the red carpet when we join the studio. They really rolled out the red carpet for Cena. But, yeah, I feel terrible about what they've done to AJ Styles. I don't. I don't know where that's going or what they're doing. He just seems going to be treading water like the big show was before Paul Heyman rescued his career.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, when Rey Mysterio lost to Logan Paul, it was like, whatever. Whatever. That was fake as fuck. But AJ Styles losing to Logan Paul, I mean, I don't. I don't know. That guy never got Going, you know, like, I don't know.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Yeah, recently. He never got going recently.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's what I meant, of course.
[00:17:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And what's up with giving Dirty Dom the Intercontinental title? Like, the whole Judgment Day is weird. And then I know, like, like, the guy we. That barely gets any airtime. And I think, you know, the guy that's always eating the apple Carlito with the long hair. Like, I think, like, he actually just, like, quit. I don't know if he quit because of the whole R Truth firing originally or it was just coincidentally around that time. I know R Truth is since back and that could be like, a whole different discussion. But yeah, I don't. I don't know what's going on with Judgment Day or Dirty Dom or AJ Styles. That. That just is all murky to me.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: You know, I'm real. I'm waiting for CM Punk's, like, weird get along gang with Jey USO and Sami Zayn to get a name. Like, they're like the Avengers. Except, yeah, Jey USO got defeated. I. I don't know. I don't think Seth Rollins cares about them anymore. So I don't know.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I. Well, yeah, I think, like. Well, Matt might have been suggesting yesterday, like, it's all paving the way for Goldberg to match up with Gunther. And like, I think it's because Gunther is actually a really technically sound wrestler. Like, he can take. He can take, like, anybody and make the match look appealing. And I read somewhere that's what Triple 8, Triple H actually wanted to be Gunther. Like, he didn't want to have, like, the fancy finishers. Like, he just wanted to be Mr. Technical.
And ironically, I was watching the other day, there were three stages of hell match. Like from 1999 or maybe 2001. I think it was 2001. Like, no Mercy, triple H versus Stone Cold. And like, the first stage was supposed to be pure technical wrestling. Like, you could only get falls to count inside the ring, and you weren't supposed to be able to street brawl. I think it would lead to, like, a dq. Ironically, Stone Cold won that. And Triple H, like, Stone cold called him Mr. Technical Wrestler or something in that time. And Stone Cold ironically won that. And then Triple H won the Street Brawl. It. Like, they transferred the match to something else. And then the final one was Hell in a Cell. Like, they put the cage around the the arena for the final match, and Triple H somehow won that. But my point here is Triple H apparently always wanted to be a technical wrestler, not a street brawler. And that's exactly what Gunther really is. So I think he gives Gunther good storylines. You can argue that he has the lesser of the two titles right now between the World Heavyweight Championship and the undisputed disputed Championship. But, yeah, he gives him the good storylines and gave him the win over Jey uso, because Gunther is who Triple H wanted to be. But I think he, like, it wouldn't be a pretty match. Jay. USO vs Goldberg is, from what I understand, reading everything, like, and I think they were fearful that it would just be mocked for years, so that's why they put Gunther back in the position. He is, from what I understand, from what I've read. I'm sure Matt might have some thoughts on that, though.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: I think the plan was to be. It was supposed to be Goldberg vs Gunther no matter what. So this is going to be Goldberg's retirement match. It's been widely. You know, he said it. He's a. He only has one match and one match only left in him. So he announced this last year, coincidentally, on a college football preview show.
He just. He was. He was a guest, and he decided to announce it there.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: Wrestling. That is so funny.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: And I. I only. I only remember this because I happen watching it, like, just to, you know, because there was nothing else on. So, like, I was, like, messing around with my phone, and I just wanted to have the TV on, you know, and I was like, it's like, is this Goldberg right now? And, like, it's. It's not like, you know, it's not uncommon to see Goldberg on a football show. Like, he did play football, you know, but then I hear him, and I'm like, oh, my God. So I, like, I found, like, immediately the show put on. Put it on X. And I was like. I just sent it into my website, and I was like, hey, guys. Like, he just made this huge announcement, you know, and they were like, oh, my God. I would. We would have, you know, never. Never known because, you know, that that's where it was announced. But yeah, so even in that announcement, like, he had mentioned Gunther, right? So.
And any. Any interview he does about this upcoming retirement match, he mentions Gunther. So I was like, all right. You know, it's just like a foregone conclusion. Two plus two equals four.
So, like, my. My issue isn't with the match being against Gunther. That makes total sense. You know, everything that Greg said, too, you know, Gunther is going to get a good match out of probably a broomstick. So therefore, he'll get a good, good match. Goldberg, you know, but my issue is, like, you don't need to put the title on Gunther for this match to happen. In fact, by putting the title on Gunther, you have now painted yourself into a storyline corner because, you know, basically Gunther has to win no matter what, you know, whether it's by disqualification or whatnot. Because if you, if, if Goldberg wins and he wins the title in his retirement match, everybody's going to be up in arms. So, like, you've kind of. It's kind of like a foregone conclusion of what's going to happen. Don't get me wrong, in 2025, there should not be losing to Gold no matter what.
You know, with the title involved. I just don't really see the need. I had mentioned, you know, offline in those text messages yesterday. I really do like Jey USO a lot. I was very happy to see him win the Rumble. I was very happy to see him win the title. But, like, he is the type of character where I think the chase is more fun than the win. You know, everybody went crazy for him winning the title because they wanted to see his journey and see it completed. And I think, like a crack, you know, in wrestling, like, the title's fake anyway, you know what I'm saying? You don't need the title to be a megastar. What? You know, I know. I'm sorry. I apologize. I apologize for this breaking news.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: The hell you say?
[00:23:59] Speaker C: Doing the Stone Cold Watts now.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, there's a reason why, like, Raddy Piper never won the title, you know, because everybody loved watching him get beat up, you know, so, like, you don't necessarily need the title to be this megastar, and Jey USO is right now in today's world, a megastar. So, like, I'm not mad at him losing the title. I'm just mad at, like, the speed of which he lost it. Because I do think there was more story to tell with his reign, you know, like, maybe if he lost it at SummerSlam, that would make a little bit more sense, you know, that would give him a nice little, you know, but this kind of. It didn't come out of nowhere because everybody knew this match was happening, but it just kind of didn't feel like it was the right time.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: I want to talk about Jay Usu for a second. So, first of all, Greg, we love Jey USO on this show. I know you're. You're like, I don't know, he sounds like Chewbacca, but like, like, ij, he's my comfort character. At this point, you know, he comes out, he's like, yeah, man. And they're playing his stupid song, and I'm like, yeah, it's Jey uso. He's like, spider Man. He never changes. It's great. And speaking of Spider man, like, I chose Kraven's Last Hunt to talk about because while you have Gunther archetypally very similar to Kraven, Jey USO is kind of like Spider man. And exactly what Matt was talking about, where any victory Spider man gets, like, there's a story called Big Time where Peter Parker finally gets a real job, like, working at a huge software company and making, like, you know, the science of the future. And he's not a broke. He's not. He's not a broke bitch anymore. Suddenly, like, they. They ran out of stories eventually because part of Spider Man's appeal is that he's chasing that victory. Similarly, like, there's a story where he becomes the other. Like, he dies and comes back with all these special powers, and guess what? They're not around anymore. Because Spider man is at his best when he's pushed to his limits and working to overcome, you know. And yeah, I agree, USO is very much a protagonist kind of character. He's a. I mean, he's a consummate baby face, right? I mean, he would be pretty fun as a heel, but we're not going there at the moment. And like, yeah, him having. I was enjoying him defending the title from all these fucking bottom feeders like, Like Logan, Paul and whatever, AJ Styles, all these characters. And of course, the terrifying Gunther who defeated him. I mean, watching the credits roll over, that was like, whoa, dude. Like, he didn't. Gunther had no snide. He had no devastating remarks, no juggernaut lines. Just put that belt on and stood there as the credits rolled. It was crazy, you know?
[00:26:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I was really shocked at the speed of, like, Matt was saying this all transpired. And the thing too was with regards to, like, losing to Gunther, and, yeah, he beat Logan, Paul, and he also technically beat Seth Rollins by dq. That was kind of a rushed World Heavyweight Championship match. And Paul Heyman will keep saying, this man should be World Heavyweight Champion. I didn't really see it in that match. Like, it seemed like it was just kind of going back and forth and anybody could have won it if it continued. But, yeah, I don't understand the loss on injury. Phoenix at raw, the last Raw, that was just odd. And so much happened in that episode before that match that I almost completely Forgot that that match was happening. I'm like, oh, it's Gunther and Jey USO now. Because, like, the match just kind of started with no, like, forewarning or build up or anything. It just. It was. Gunther's song plays. So then I'm like, oh, I guess it's. It's Gunther versus Jey USO for the. The championship. And then you're right. Like, it. It was kind of. At least I. I watched the end of the match again. And like, it's kind of similar to how it ended at WrestleMania in the sense, like, Gunther tapped. They had Gunther tap right away, which didn't make sense in Wrestlemania. It was a very quick tap when he got him in the submission move. And then with this, like, after a few seconds, it. They did make it look like Jey USO was out of it or he looked like he was kind of turning pale. I don't know how they did that.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: But probably really choked him.
[00:28:01] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it was again, just a few seconds of that, and they're like, oh, he's out cold. Here's the championship. Gunther. And then that was that. You're right. The credits roll. But what's interesting is it popped up on YouTube. Jey Uso apparently gave a speech after that, and he, like, it was kind of a random speech. It was like, kids, brush your teeth. Like, if you go to bed, wash your ass or something. It was really. It was really out of nowhere. And his son was actually one of his sons was with him at the match and had to watch him lose in that unfortunate way.
But, yeah, I. I don't know. Like, you. You build up Jey USO for this long and you just. Just have him lose to Gunther again like that. And I have a feeling that Gunther's title days are numbered. Two. Like, I. I don't know who he'll lose it to. I. I mean, I guess Seth is a obvious possibility, but it seems like Seth is more focused on the other title because randomly CM Punk is now focused on the other title, and he's got the money in the bank contract. It's just so confusing.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Well, I'll be honest. I honestly don't even keep track of the championships because it's too confusing. I don't even know what they're talking about half the time. I have a question, and this is probably. I hope this is easily answered. So Cena is trying to walk away with that title. Goldberg. You're right, Matt. I mean, he's probably in a narrative corner. What if Goldberg did win and then retired. Like, would he just keep that forever? And they'd have to make a new belt, like.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So it would come down to what the company wants to do. But it has happened before where somebody did retire, like, in there with the title, and usually what ends up happen is it just becomes a vacant. And then they have, like, a tournament to determine the new champion.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. It's like the presidency.
[00:29:48] Speaker C: Like, but I. I have to say, like, the whole RAW world heavyweight title, that actually doesn't have a lineage or history to it much, because if you look at the official records, I think that only goes back to 2023, right?
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah. So what ended up happening was. So the. The title that Cena currently has has two lineages. The first one goes back to the beginning of when they had three W's. F. And Buddy Rogers was the first ever champion, I think, like, back in the 50s. And then that recently got merged with the Universal title, which kind of popped up to be like, the RAW championship, like, about 10, 11 years ago. I only remember that because I was actually at the show where they were. Finn Balor won the title to become the first ever one. But then they got tired of having those two belts and they merged them. But then they were like, oh, no, we need a title for, like, the other show. So Greg is correct. Two years ago, they held this big tournament, and Seth Rollins became the first champion until Gunther took it off of him last year. But, yeah, I mean, to kind of, kind of go off of what.
What Greg was saying with Jey uso, I think Jey uso, even though he lost, they did do something that I think was important, and that is the fact that he was choked out to lose because he. Technically, he didn't tap. Technically, he didn't quit. He just got choked out.
In storylines, he can basically say, like, hey, technically, like, I never gave up. I just happened to pass out. You know, they've done that in the past. You know, like stone cold at WrestleMania 13, he never quit against Bret Hart, despite the fact that he had all that, you know, the Crimson Mask coming pouring down his face, you know, and that's a big reason why he became who he became. Stone Cold, the guy who never quit, you know, so Jey uso, like, they did protect him by having him not tap or not say, I quit, which I think is very important, because now he can kind of come back from that a little bit easier. Not super easy, but to kind of make a comic book connection, even though it's not on the pages. I know we were talking about Craven's last hunt, but, you know, Greg was talking about like watching the credits roll over Gunther and just, you know, a lot of people, they were kind of like cutting the people with like disbelief looks and stuff like that. And I was. I was sitting there and I'm like, man, this is a little bit like Infinity War where, you know, Thanos makes that snap. And like, even Thanos didn't have like a crazy reaction. He just kind of like stood there and was like, I did it. You know, like, wow. You know, and then just like people just started fading away. And like, it's kind of like I actually just got goosebumps thinking about that where like Gunther kind of just makes it happen and he doesn't even have that reaction. He's just like, I did it, you know, and like, what's next? I don't know, but I did it, you know?
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a great connection to make because like, yeah, like on one hand it. It was like, wow, what's the company doing? But like, I was looking at it more in a. In a, like, you know, like a. I always approach this stuff like on the level of the kayfabe, because I love it. I love the writing. I think it's great. You know, I love the risks they take. And I was kind of looking at it because. Here's the thing, Greg, you're right. Go through. Does. Does just come out. But I love that because they. His music sounds like the Jaws theme.
[00:33:06] Speaker C: Resting Logan and aj.
Are you ever gonna say anything nice about this man? The world champ?
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Good.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: Kind of speechless right now because the aura this man has when he steps into an arena is insane.
Everybody is at attention.
The champ has a rock.
[00:33:37] Speaker C: Is in the ring.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: It's this, like this. It's this like creeping orchestral sting. And then you hear he's like a top tier threat. He comes walking out like a predator. And like, you know, Jey USO is defending his title and doing his crowd pleasing thing, but he has this specter of death haunting him. Gunther will have his due. That's his belt and you can't have it. And he came out and like, that's the thing. I like that is not afraid to develop its villains and make them do reprehensible things. I mean, the build up to that title match was crazy. Like when he beat Jimmy USO down in front of Jey Uso, who could only watch and pull up the zip tie. That was great. So like, yeah, Gunther just coming out and demolishing J uso like he knows he can.
That's kind of cool. And it sets up a lot of story possibilities, which maybe they won't follow any of them, because I hear Goldberg, and I'm like. Like, he's not part of the storyline, and it's because he only has one fight in him. Right. Which is very, very unfortunate. If this was. If this was comic book lands, you know, he'd be intercepting and backing Jey uso up. He'd be part of his little. His little. His little, you know, band of fools fighting Seth Rollins. But again, he can't be getting dropped on his head right now. So, you know.
[00:34:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't even know how they're gonna introduce this Goldberg storyline.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: They're not.
[00:35:01] Speaker C: And when are they gonna start it?
[00:35:03] Speaker A: He's just gonna walk out.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, we're gonna. If you. We're gonna find out tomorrow.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Okay. And there you go.
[00:35:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:12] Speaker A: It's not on PW Insider any.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: It is. It is.
[00:35:15] Speaker C: I really need to read PW Insider now, so.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Yeah, we didn't get to it, really, but Money in the Bank. Pretty great, right? Watch it. Watching mommy, like, pick up the ladder like the juggernaut and just beat those down.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: What I love about Money in the bank, especially, like, the last seven years, is that, like, I love the men's match, but, like, the women tend to outshine the men, in my opinion, and that's no knock against the men's match. I thought it was incredible, but, like, that women's match and the fact that it opened the show and just kind of, like, set the tone and the bar, like, I thought it was really, like, every other match I thought was pretty solid and. Or great. But, like, that women's match just, I think, stole the show. I thought it was incredible. So many different storylines can come out of it. Naomi winning the briefcase is huge because, you know, she's unhinged lately, so you never know what she's going to do. Obviously, she does have her sights set on both Jade Cargill and Bianca Belair, but, like, they don't have the title right now, so, like, you know, there's still a lot of storyline to do before she cashes in, but, yeah, just an incredible job by those women.
[00:36:19] Speaker A: I agree there's a lot to talk about with the men's match, but, you know, I'm a huge fan of Rhea Ripley. I think everyone is, of course, but, like, I especially, like, I feel like I watched just to see her do cool things, and I love that all the girls essentially teamed up to defeat her because she's, like, this horrifying. Like, she's like. She's like something from the Attitude era. They buried her in ladders at one point, and, like, when she rose one more time, it was like, that was amazing. There was a moment when it was just her and Alexa Bliss, and, like, Rhea turned to her and just smiled. That was awesome. Her getting defeated by Stephanie Vacair and that stupid sex move is just whatever. Whatever, nerd. You know? Like, I don't care.
[00:36:56] Speaker C: Wait, is that the Devil's Kisses or whatever?
[00:36:58] Speaker A: It's called the Devil's Kiss. Yeah.
[00:37:01] Speaker C: Yeah. That's kind of an odd move. It does look somewhat sexual.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: It's just there to make the men whistle, you know, I like it, but I'm like, come on.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. She's so much more than that.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. It's like, she's so talented, you know?
[00:37:15] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: Remember, wrestling's PG now.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: Is it?
[00:37:20] Speaker C: I know somehow, I mean, they. They still have, like, curse where it's kind of ironic because Netflix is like, anything goes. And, like, why put it on Netflix if it's pg? But that's, like, a whole separate discussion.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Roxanne Perez, I mean, they're really pushing her. She was. She was pretty cool, wasn't she?
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yes. Big fan of Roxanne. She really elevated the women's division in NXT the last few years.
She did a phenomenal job down there, and she left it in perfect condition because there's so many. So many women fighting for the title that I think they. They're doing this huge thing down there where, like, basically 10 women appeared just to kind of challenge the current champion. Right.
[00:38:03] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:38:04] Speaker B: So, like, Roxanne now being on the main roster, I mean, she just got inserted in, like, smoothly, you know, she. She came in second for the Royal Rumble, kind of beat the record for the longest time in a women's Royal Rumble, Got inserted into elimination chamber. You know, she's.
You know, she's on her way to being pretty much one. One of the faces of the women's division for a long, long time, you know, so it's awesome to see.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Her and Chelsea Green teaming up to do things. Pretty fun to see. Like, I didn't think either of them would win, but I was like, oh, no, here we go. You know?
[00:38:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: I like that Naomi gets to use her strength as an asset, because I've talked previously about how, like, it bothers me how they treat some of the women, you know, but, like, her winning is pretty cool. And, like, you know, the whole Jay Cargill thing, I don't want to see that go away, because that was really fun. I love the drama, you know, personally.
Absolutely. Yeah. I didn't see. She didn't really battle Raya. Like, a lot of the match seemed to be keeping Raya down because she was so dangerous, which is funny. She rose like, three times. Like, she was like the Undertaker. Just kept getting back up the men's division, though. I mean, El Grande Americano. Great character or greatest character.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: It's. I can't get enough of them, to be honest with you.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: Dude, that moment where he. He rode the one ladder to reach the other ladder and then headbutted Penta right off the ladder.
[00:39:29] Speaker C: Poor Penta.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: I. I agree. Poor Penta. I mean, he is so cool. He has one of the best entrances, and it's like he's just fighting for a top spot at this point.
[00:39:39] Speaker C: Like, well, they had him come out on fire, and then, like, I don't think he's picked up a win in a while. Like, they just keep having him lose now.
And, like, I didn't expect him to win money in the bank, but, like, I. I don't know. What. What are we having? Like, why is Dirty Dom the IC champion? That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, he's this. I think he's kind of boring because, like, you're right, Dan. All he does is eat chicken tendies. And, like, I mean, I guess they have the whole thing with Roxanne going on, like, this tension with Liv and Roxanne. And Roxanne did win the first Night of Champions qualifying match, I believe, too, on Raw last week. But, yeah, the men's division, like, yeah, I guess the. The mid card is kind of all muddied waters.
You have, like, the upper mid cut. Well, I don't even know. What would Sami Zayn be right now? Like, lower main event, upper mid card?
[00:40:40] Speaker A: Dude, if. If Jey USO is Spider man, then Sami Zayn is Iron Fist. Like, he's there. I like his theme song, you know, I like his energy, but God damn.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: That guy, he's just there, you know, I think. And this is. I mean, this is something weird to complain about, but, like, WWE just has, like, unlimited talent, you know? You know? So, like, again, I'm not complaining about it because, you know, you can put anybody against anybody, and it's going to be probably a banger of a match, you know, but the Problem is you can only have like a certain amount of people and in either as a champion or in the main event, you know, because you don't always have to have the main event be the champion, right? But like, you know, you can only push a certain amount of guys. So like people like Penta who comes in in January and like is just so cool and he goes on this undefeated streak. We're now in June and he's, you know, listen, he's still fighting for the briefcase, but you know, he's, he has cooled off a little bit, you know. But the good thing about WWE is like, because it's every single week and there's a huge show once a month and sometimes more than once a month you can like, you know, cycle guys through, you know. So like Penta, you know, he'll probably get his shot, you know, sometime this year. He'll probably get a pretty big match sometime this year. It's just one of those things that it's very cyclical, I think. Dirty Dom, this is just my headcanon, but he is the IC champion just because either he or WWE has an issue with shapes because he has had two title defenses and it's been against Pentagon and Octagon. So I don't know what their issue with shapes is. And I don't know who else can show up to. I don't know if there's any squares out there in the world or a circle, but Dirty Dom definitely has some issues with, with multi side shapes for sure. Maybe a rhombus will show up one and, and challenge him. I don't know.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: The sir circle will come all the way from like, you know, fucking Flatland, right? You know, with Squire square in toe, Dirty Dom. You know, I'm waiting for the luchadores to like form a little team. I don't understand what the point of these wrestling teams are. Like. I don't really like, I get it, like for storytelling purposes, but like Judgment Day doesn't do anything, you know, like they don't like help each other out really. Not really. Like Liv Morgan's partner, like will come in and like do stuff for her and save her because, you know, Liv Morgan is a mean girl. Yeah, but like that, like that's her, that's her wrestling partner.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting how I, I don't know what's going on with Judgment Day. There's a lot of starts and stops with them. And this, you know, this even dates back to like when they first started, you know, with, with Edge and him bringing in Damien Priest and Rhea Ripley into the. Into the faction. But, yeah, there's, you know, you can tell, like, they're definitely going to somehow break up or, you know, split off because there's just too much tension. But I don't know, because, you know, Triple H, really, you can tell from the NXT days that Triple H loves Finn Balor, but he also just relies on him to, like, make other people look good. And, yeah, I'm, like, waiting for him to, like, pull the trigger on Finn Balor having this major storyline where, like, he can take it to the next level, but I don't know, he just seems very hesitant to do so. But, yeah, Dirty Dom, you know, listen, I will say this about Dirty Dom. I don't hate him as champion, but I have to give him, like, if. I don't know. If you watched when he first started in wwe, wwe, people were, like, calling for his head, like, how dare he be in the ring? He's so bad. He's only in the ring because of Rey Mysterio, you know? So for him to get to this point, I mean, my Lord, the improvement he has had is ridiculous because.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Greg doesn't like him, but I enjoy him. I do think that he's fishing for a role.
[00:44:16] Speaker C: I'm not a huge fan. Like, I just don't really get the point of him. Like, I know. Well, who's really the leader of Judgment Day, first of all, is it him or Finn Balor?
[00:44:29] Speaker B: That's a good question.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: I was going to say no one leads that team.
[00:44:33] Speaker C: Or is it somebody else? Yeah, it's just. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on in Raw, but I can't speak as much to smackdown, because I don't even know how to regularly watch smackdown. But that's like, a separate issue in terms of Raw, though. Like, we were talking about all the talent.
There's. There's too much talent. I agree. It's very saturated, but I feel like you could wipe out, like, American Made, like, everybody except Chad Gable and El Grande Americano, if we want. We want to say he's part of American Made or they're the same character. There is that whole argument that Pat McAfee will always deny. Yeah, exactly.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: How dare you?
[00:45:18] Speaker C: And then Judgment Day.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I thought you were knowledgeable about wrestling, Greg.
[00:45:23] Speaker C: I would. I would keep Finn Balor. You gotta keep him. And I guess keep. Yeah, I guess most of the characters you could keep, but I feel like maybe they have judgment days, so they can Put all those people in adequately. But, yeah, I don't know. I can't even name, like, I can't name who the Road warriors are individually.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: It's. It's what Matt said, though. There's a lot of fucking talent, you.
[00:45:46] Speaker C: Know, so there is. But that's why they make so many.
[00:45:49] Speaker A: Different championships, so that they can have multiple stories going. It's. It's. You know what? It's kind of like. Like, I hate to go here, but it's like, you know, like, Batman is incredibly popular. Everyone wants to write Batman. There's only one Batman book. There's only two Batman books. Oh, no. We want to give our top writers Batman. What do you do? You make another book, right?
[00:46:10] Speaker C: That's, you know, like.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: But then you get us where we're like, wait, John Cena wants this championship? I thought Seth Rollins is going for it. Oh, the undisputed. Oh, I thought the heavyweight was the top. And it's just.
[00:46:20] Speaker C: Well, I think that's part of the problem. They're bending over their back to cater to Cena right now, and once he's retired, I think that will open up a lot of things. Like, yeah, it's. I don't. His matches are just not interesting, in my opinion. Like, it's just a bunch of low blows and disqualification. Things like. Yeah, like, if you want to look at his match against Randy Orton or Cody, like, both of them were kicking his ass, really, the whole time. And then he just does his formula. He low blows. He does, like, a couple attitude adjustments, and then. Then, like, they. They even have, like, the ref, like, knocked out or away or something, while the other guy is pinning Cena for, like, like a ten count. I think one of them, like, he was literally, like, like, held down 10 seconds, and the referee was somewhere. And then magically the referee appears and Cena wins again. Like, sadly, that's probably gonna be the story until he retires.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: My thing with Cena is that, like, I would. I didn't mind all this. Like, I'm here to ruin wrestling. But, like, I don't know, since the Rock things, I. I was under the impression that Cena was gonna Team, was gonna betray the Rock, but then the Rock didn't show up at WrestleMania, so now Cena is just.
[00:47:35] Speaker C: Well, that's the thing. Like, how often is the Rock gonna appear?
[00:47:39] Speaker A: Well, the Rock is gone.
[00:47:41] Speaker C: Yeah, you can't really make a consistent storyline out of him, but I thought.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: It was literally just gonna be that, and then Cena would just hang out and be a Cool guy after that because, oh, I wasn't really a heel. I was just here to trap the. But maybe that wasn't the plan. I have no idea. But only that was. Cena comes out and goes, I'm fucking John Cena.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: I'm here to ruin wrestling.
[00:47:59] Speaker A: And my boyfriend has to remind me. That scene is actually pretty cool. He's like, no, he's a nice guy. He's like the king of cancer kids. He's really nice.
[00:48:06] Speaker C: In real life, he's cool. Like, he.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: That's the thing. I'm like, oh, my God, this douchebag again.
[00:48:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, he has more. He. He's. Has more made more wishes in the Make A Wish foundation than, like, anybody in the history of the make the Wish Foundation. So that is really cool. Yeah. I don't like where they took him with the wrestling character, but again, you can probably thank Stephanie McMahon and Triple H and people like that. I don't really know about Triple H's writing ability. I. I don't know. I kind of. Maybe you guys have thoughts on that. And I wonder who was writing most of it when, like, Vince McMahon was around.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: I do think it's largely a team effort. I think Triple H has a good attitude. He has a good instinct for what to do with some of the people.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: Especially on the main roster. Triple H is just kind of like the one who says yes or no, and it makes the tweaks, you know, but he does have, like, a staff room basically of writers who, you know, both. Both writers who have been in the industry for a long time. And also they have hired some, like, Hollywood writers, too, for, like, the. The more drama effect. And, you know, it's a nice blend. And I do think, like, you know, I think we were talking about it last week with Chris is that, you know, WWE right now, like, the only bad stuff really is, like, what's happening at the top, right, with, like, Cena. Cena is very. Just paint by numbers. I'm a bad guy type of thing. No depth to it, but when you look underneath that, like, I don't have too many complaints other than like, hey, like, who's. Who's next? And like, you know, not. Not because Goldberg's coming in, but because, you know, just, like, you just never know who's really going to be spearheaded to them. I keep making spear. Spear with Goldberg.
[00:49:53] Speaker A: Goldberg is coming.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: Yeah. But I keep, you know, you just, like, you know, you don't know who's going to be coming in and, you know, taking. Taking over once. Cena's gone, and the Rock decides to kind of disappear again because he will probably show up and ruin something, you know, within the next year. But they. You know, that. That's my only worry is, like, all right, once Cena is done, what's next? You know, what are.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: What are next?
[00:50:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. It's so crowded, though, right now, right? Because the last smackdown, I only can catch highlights of smackdown and whatnot.
[00:50:26] Speaker A: But smackdown airs a month after it comes on Peacock, a month after it airs on tv, so I can't catch up on it either. I'm kind of pissy about that. I might have to start watching it live, which is like, that's Friday. Like, well, yeah, I don't.
[00:50:39] Speaker C: They had Cena coming out, talking his crap, and then they had. They had Cody Rhodes come down. They had Randy Orton come down, who I thought they were just gonna have him challenge at Backlash, and then he vanished, which was the case until the other day. Then he appeared on smackdown, and then even LA Knight came down, and they're all want his title. So that's crowded. And then you have. I didn't even know it was confirmed official yet, but I guess it is. CM Punk vs Cena for the undisputed championship at the Night of Champions.
That's really random to me, like, because, again, CM Punk is. I thought he was Raw, but, yeah, they're just like, yeah, let's have him challenge for. I don't really understand that one either.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: When it comes to seeing, like. So you just have to, unfortunately, this year, turn your mind off when it comes to John Cena, because what they're doing is they're just doing the. The best hits tour. So, like, one of his most talked about loved feuds is with CM punk from, like, 12 years ago. So they're just. They just wanted make sure that they, you know, wrestle again. And I, you know, it kind of does fit because, like, you know, so far, you know, Cena took out Cody. Cena has, you know, basically kind of taken out whoever they put in front of him so far. And CM Punk, I would have saved CM Punk for a couple months from now, but, like, CM Punk is just like, all right, enough is enough. I took you out once when. When the fans, you know, were behind me 12 years ago. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to take you out again. And so before you leave with the. The belt, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make sure that you leave with nothing. So, like, you know, for me, like, the storyline, while it makes Sense, I would have saved it for, like, a couple months from now so that, like, maybe you can, like, plant a few more seeds and, like, give a couple more hints that CM Punk is going to do this. But again, I think with Cena from day one, him turning heel is just kind of like them hitting the panic button, you know, because, you know, ticket sales were not where they wanted to be for Elimination Chamber. They did not, not technically sell out WrestleMania, even though they made a ton of money off of it and they're going back to Las Vegas for some reason next year again.
Yeah, but I think, like, honestly, like, with Cena coming in, listen, he deserves one last run, 100%. But, like, this one last run has also derailed every good thing that WWE had going.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:53:07] Speaker C: I agree. I would have held off a couple months on the CM Punk storyline and let it build a little more. It just seemed completely random where it came. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't. I don't. I'm not familiar with the rivalry, but it sounds like CM Punk had a rivalry with, like, pretty much everybody at one point, and there's a lot of people that just can't stand him, especially Seth Rollins.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: My issue. My. My big issue with this stuff is it's very inorganic, like Rhea and Iyo, sky respecting each other as noble warriors.
That's real. I get that. That feels like it's true to their characters. They're playing to their strengths. John Cena, he's not lovable as a villain. Like, say what you will about Logan Paul, I love when he comes out like a little elf making his faces and be doing his douchebaggery, you know, pulling fucking Rey Mysterio's legs while he's about to do a move. Like, Logan Paul sucks. I want to see him doing sucky things and getting his ass kicked. Cena coming out and doing his stuff, like, I don't know, after that initial thing at the elimination chamber where he betrayed Cody Rhodes, like, it's just stale. There's no dimension to it, you know? And it's like you mentioned that, like, all these Hollywood writers are out, are working in the. You know, in the writers room. It's tv. Of course they are. That's how it should be, you know? And I don't feel like I'm watching an organic narrative. I feel like I'm watching, like, this thing I just need to get through. All right, It's Jeph Loeb's backup story. Get back to four, please. You know, Like. Like, I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:54:32] Speaker B: Like, absolutely. Yep. That's why. Honestly. And I. I respect John Cena, but I can't wait for him to officially retire.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: Yeah, me too, because it is stale. Like, he comes out, he does the same speech, the opening of every raw or smackdown that he attends. It's like, yeah, he. He's like, I raised your children or whatever. They watched me. He goes to this little tyrant and, like, it just. It's the same thing over and over again.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: He's. He's doing this stuff that. He's doing this, like, arch villain routine after Gunther comes out and trash talks the whole audience too. And it's like, no.
[00:55:13] Speaker C: You notice they don't have Gunther and Cena ever interact.
[00:55:16] Speaker A: It's like, Gunther would kick his ass.
[00:55:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to see that.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: What the.
[00:55:23] Speaker C: Actually, they would make it look good because Gunther can make anybody look good.
And that was. That's, like, one of the things that Triple H likes about him. Like, Gunther will start out the match. If you notice, there's a formula to it. He'll start out dominating the match, and then he'll let the other guy get his hits in. And then eventually Gunther will win the match in the end. And he can make matches that should only, like, last, like, a minute. Go like 10 or 15 minutes, which is impressive too.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: I wanna. Speaking of Gunther, I'm gonna read a bit from Kraven's Last Hunt because, you know, I enjoy Gunther. I think he's a great villain. I think he's very fun to watch. I love when he trash talks to the audience. He threatens little kids. Like, it's hilarious. It's like something out of the Attitude era, which is, you know, when me and Greg were coming up. I mean, Matt, you're a little older than us.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: A little bit, yeah. I'm 39 now, so.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Oh, you're not that much older. You're our generation. I'm 35.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Oh, there you are, too.
[00:56:20] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. Okay. Yeah. So we all came up during the Attitude era. That's our stuff, you know, and there's stuff to appreciate. But that's why when I see characters like Seth Rollins or Rusev. I mean, Rusev is older, but still, like, his. His spooky promos where he's. Ivy defeats you all, I'm just like, yes, I love that stuff.
Basically, this story, Craven's last hunt. This was an era where Spider man was married to Mary Jane and he was Spider Man. He was wearing his black suit, right? So basically there's a character called Kraven the hunter. You might know him from a shitty movie staring Aaron Taylor Johnson. It's garbage. Craven is a gigantic scary Russian hunter and his whole identity is that like he could take down any prey. Nothing can defeat Kraven. And I, I will have images of him here when I edit the video. But basically he comes to New York to fight Spider man and Spider man kicks his ass because he's, he's Spider Man. You know, it doesn't matter that Kraven has supernatural powers, right? He can move like a lion, he can, he can jump like a, like a gorilla, he can fight like an animal. It doesn't matter. Spider man is outclasses him and he just can't live it down. So this story is him reclaiming his honor. I'm gonna read a bit of it. I am Craven the beast, right? We see him fighting a jaguar. We see him fighting like a werewolf and punching its head off. It's epic. My mind is raging glory. My heart is fire and pride. My body is grace and power. I am Kravinoff the Man. An old man now, though few would believe it. Just a child. When my parents came to this country shortly after the overthrow of the tsar some 70 odd years ago, there was no more room in Russia for aristocrats, for culture, for honor, for human dignity. But all those things were bred in my bones. Long before the Trotsky's and Lenin's dragged my homeland into the pit. Dignity, honor. Where are such qualities today? All the world, it seems, has followed Russia's sad example. Were my parents alive today, they would look upon this world, this frightened, wounded animal called civilization, without recognition, with great fear, in disgust. I am Kraven the hunter. I have found dignity not in the cities, but in the jungles. I have found honor not in the civilized, but in the primal. He goes on, he goes on a bit, right about how he has to die and so on. And then we're introduced to Spider man who is doing his hero thing. He goes to visit one of his informants. You know, some streethood is dead. He shows up to his funeral, drops a bunch of money in the collection plate and leaves. Meanwhile, Kraven is, is popping drugs. He's surrounded by spiders that he's hallucinating, freaking the fuck out. And yeah, he goes hunting for Spider Man. For years the spider has thwarted me, mocked me, humiliated me. In the beginning I was Nate. I was naive. I thought he was a man. But he couldn't possibly be a man. No man could do to Kraven what the spider has. No man. So black, so inhuman, so beautiful. You exist to test me, don't you? To taunt and challenge me. And I cannot rest until I have proven myself. Until I have destroyed you. I must rest. So he shoots Spider man with a dart that makes him hallucinate. And then he takes him down. And Spider Man's trying to be like, hey, why are you putting that rifle at me? You're just like Dr. Octopus. Don't shoot me. Kraven shoots him, buries him, puts his costume on and goes out just brutalizing and killing criminals. Because now he has killed Spider man and worn his flesh and now he is Spider Man. So the story is basically Spider man breaks out of the grave because he didn't actually die. Kraven shot him with a tranquilizer dart because this is a comic book. And Kraven lets Spider man defeat him and take his. His. His costume back. But it doesn't matter because Kraven has reclaimed his dignity, right? And he kills himself. Great story. Truly a great story. It's six issues. Highly recommend Kraven's Last Hunt. But I mean, considering how amazing the jey USO story is to me, you know, cuz, like, he's a guy who I'm just sort of like, oh, who's this joker? And then like, I don't know, he's fun, he's exciting. He comes out to his theme song and he defeats Gunther, the big nasty. He defeats this guy who to me is like a comic book supervillain. And like Gunther coming down and defeating him again, it's par for the course, right? I mean, I don't know. What do you guys think about that?
[01:00:30] Speaker C: Yeah, it's almost like Gunther acknowledging he had to die only to come back. So I. Yeah, I think it is par for the course. We all knew that Gunther wasn't just going to go away, he was going to linger. That really does feel like his title now. Like the. Yeah, it's weird because it feels like his title, but the brand doesn't feel like raw, doesn't feel like his show. So it feels like they're kind of diverged or separate. I know that's a little bit off from the passage that you just talked about, but I just somehow made that observation right now. So, yeah, Gunther is tied to the title. He's. He's almost like one with the title. He was always going to come back. He is the super villain of that title. It almost. You know how they call the Rock the final boss or whatever. It feels like Gunther is the final boss of the world heavyweight title.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: Well, that's the thing. It feels like a complication in Seth Rollins's story because Seth Rollins is like, I'm just gonna go defeat De uso. Like, I keep losing to him, but that's just because CM Punk keeps pulling shenanigans.
[01:01:36] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[01:01:37] Speaker A: He's using Brawn, Breaker, and the other guy to just, you know, kind of pick them all off so that he can take down Jey uso on his own. But now it's Gould.
[01:01:45] Speaker C: Yeah, well, because, like, so I almost thought during that match, like. And it would have been like a premature.
I was gonna say a premature climax, but, like, Seth could have pulled out the Money in the bank card on that Monday night Raw, but everybody would have not liked that because it. It already seemed like we knew the match was coming, but. But it wasn't, like, hyped up for whatever reason. Like, I remember, like, three weeks from this Monday on Raw, you're gonna get Gunther versus Jey Uso. There's a couple of things with that. Why wasn't it not at Money in the Bank? And then you could say, oh, well, you had Cody and Jey USO vs. Logan, Paul and Cena at Money in the Bank. They built that up. And then the only place you could really put that match, I guess, before Night of the Champions was that Raw. It's kind of an odd timing, but, yeah, Seth could have pulled that card. They were both, like, weakened, especially Jey uso at that point. Like, Jey was running on fumes. I mean, I'm sure, like, factor out all the storytelling and all that crap. The human body can only handle so much wrestling, no matter whether it's fake or real. And he was, like, doing a match like, like on Raw. I even think a couple of smackdowns, maybe he. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But he was, like, on every pay per view, every Raw. And then if he wasn't, like, in a match, he was also interfering in somebody else's match because, like, Gunther called it out like, a week or two before.
Yeah, if Punk gets in trouble, you're gonna come down and help him. And I think Gunther was right. He spread himself too thin. But Gunther, at the end of the day, he's only looking out for Gunther. He doesn't give a shit about Punk or any of that other stuff. He doesn't like the storylines. That's also part of his whole character. He's just focused on defending that belt.
[01:03:46] Speaker A: That's like, he. He's what Cena's trying to be.
[01:03:50] Speaker C: Yes, that's a good point.
Yeah, but Cena's all mixed up in the storytelling, and. But it's, like, lame storytelling, I think, because we've heard the story so many times, but I don't know what direction they can pivot to. Like, with the amount of time he has left, though.
[01:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. It's pretty bizarro. I don't really get it. But that being said, how do we feel? Last place I want to go to, unless you guys have anything pertinent you want to talk about, is Seth freaking Rollins as this, like, Machiavellian, like, villain. I mean, I like it. How do you guys feel? I mean, Greg, I think you like him, right?
[01:04:26] Speaker C: So he's grown on me. Like, I don't know, like, Paul Heyman makes him more palatable for me because, like.
Like, it's fun to just watch Paul Heyman start, like, dancing to his, like, song and going, wow, It's. It's just. He's so entertaining. Like, I feel like.
Like, if they. If you need to, like, give somebody a boost or, like, like, resurrect somebody's career, like, the obvious answer is just pair them with Heyman. Like, he'll. He'll make it happen somehow. Like, he's just. He just brings that boost. I think that's what it happened with me for Rollins. Yeah, it was entertaining to see CM Punk and Rollins have that rivalry. I mean, to be honest, like, I still think CM Punk would just always kick his ass. And we. We saw that. Like, I'm pretty sure, like, CM Punk pretty much always won if there was no interference.
But when it gets the waters get muddy or Murky, like, see WrestleMania, I'm still laughing kind of about, like, I don't know, like, how much a low blow would hurt from Paul Heyman. I don't think it would put CM Punk on his back or Roman Reigns on his back or anything like that. But, yeah, I. I admire, like, him as the architect or visionary. Now I see where it's going. Like, I Architect did this. I had this vision. I was able to turn Roman Reigns and Paul Heyman against each other, and I was able to end the BFF friendship that was between Paul Heyman and CM Punk. Like, I find that very interesting, too.
So, yeah, I appreciate Seth Rollins now. He's grown on me for me.
[01:06:20] Speaker B: I mean, I've enjoyed Seth Rollins for, like, the last. I discovered him, like, 18 years ago. He showed up in Ring of honor in 2007 in this awesome, awesome storyline, which I won't go into with. He was part of the Age of the Fall with Jimmy Jacobs attacking the Briscoes. And it was a. I mean, just a bloody, bloody display. And when I found out that at the time, I think he was like 21 years old, and I was like, in my early 20s as well, so I was like, oh, this is like. Like, this is the future. I'm looking at the future. And he became huge in Ring of Honor. Then he signed with wwe, did a nice job in nxt. And when he showed up as a Shield member, I was like, oh, my God, one of my guys made it. This is amazing. You know, so, like, I have nothing but love for Seth Rollins. I enjoy pretty much everything that he does.
And much like Gunther, his desire to, like, always be the. Be the man, right, Is exactly what a wrestler should be.
You know, when you were reading the. The Craven excerpt and then we were talking about Gunther. Gunther, you know, what comes to mind to me is, like, I don't know, not to be dramatic, but, like, I think, like, success is probably the hardest drug to quit. You know, like, once you get just a little bit of a taste of it, like, you just want more and more and more, you know, the Undertaker. That's the Undertaker, absolutely. You know, and, you know, with Gunther winning the title, and I forget the exact percentage, but since he's been on the main roster, he's been a champion for like, 75% of the time. And with Seth Rollins, he's always. Every move he makes is to be champion, right? And that's exactly what a wrestler should be doing, especially a heel. My only issue with Seth Rollins is this, because his presentation is phenomenal. His actions are phenomenal. His desire to get the championship is phenomenal. His sneakiness is phenomenal. My only issue is WWE has to find a way. If he's going to be a bad guy, they have to find a way for the crowd to boo him. Simple as that. Because right now, his music hits and the crowd goes bonkers, and they hum along with his. With his. With his music, and they, you know, chant for him and they go crazy for him. And that's not a bad thing. Like, you know, you want wrestlers to be popular, but if you want him to be the bad guy that you want him to be, then you have to, like, do something where he does get booed. Because if not, then he's just a cool heel. And unfortunately, cool heels don't have a lot of sustainability, you know. So to me, as much as I would hate to see it go, like, he should probably change his theme music or like. Or. Or, like, demand that it gets cut off, you know, like, hey, don't sing my song only. Only I get to hum my song, you know, or something like that, you know?
And I hate to say it as much as I love it, but, like, Bron Breaker and Bronson Reed also make him cooler, too. You know, they're just in the background looking like his, you know, pit bulls ready to strike, you know, And Paul Heyman makes him look cool, too. And listen, the presentation is phenomenal that he's kind of, like, starting to go a little bit more traditional with his attire because, like, the craziness, as much as I'm starting to miss it, like, that craziness, his, like, huge peacocking also makes him very popular, and I loved it. But, like, again, if you're going to have him, like, take the championship away from down the line, like a Jay USO or CM Punk or somebody that. Or Cody Rhodes, somebody that the crowd loves, then there cannot be a positive pop when Seth Rollins cashes in.
[01:09:48] Speaker A: That's a good point. That's a really good point, because I do like him. He's one of my. He's one of my favorite characters right now because he is like a comic book super villain with his Michael Jackson outfits. And you're right at money in the bank, he was wearing a more traditional kind of thing, you know? Yeah, it's a great.
[01:10:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I think, like, so that, you know, like, especially at our age, like, we're gonna like the bad guys no matter what.
[01:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah, we're just.
[01:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah, but, like, we should be like, boo.
[01:10:12] Speaker A: Boo.
[01:10:12] Speaker B: You know, like, Like. But like, be like, happy to boo, you know, like, oh, you're doing a good job, so I'm gonna boo you, you know, like, yeah, like, that's. That's. That's pretty big, you know?
[01:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah, they're success. They're success. They're successful with Gunther in that.
[01:10:24] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
[01:10:25] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:10:25] Speaker B: 100.
Absolutely true.
[01:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah.
[01:10:29] Speaker C: Well, was Gunther. I haven't watched long enough. But was he always a heel from the beginning?
[01:10:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Like, I. I don't know.
Especially since signing with wwe, like, when he was in NXT UK and then nxt. Yeah, he's pretty much been a heel. I don't think he's worked face since he was, like, on the Indies over in Germany and stuff like that, so.
[01:10:52] Speaker C: Wow. Okay, that makes sense.
[01:10:54] Speaker A: Then there you go. Okay, well, I think that's a good place to end on. You know, I mean, exciting stuff on the horizon. And yeah, definitely a good show, despite some oddities. But, you know, with a, you know, with. With scripted live TV and, you know, a lot of people to manage things do tend to get kind of messy, but I think they'll pull it out at the end. Any. Any closing thoughts?
[01:11:14] Speaker C: I hope that they figure out a way to make the Cena storyline more interesting or palatable with the amount of time they have left. I'm not expecting it, but yeah, and I. I think you're. You're right. Like, Matt Gunther is always, like, plotting, like, how can I be the champion or defend the champion? Just like Seth Rollins. And I'll leave with a quote from Paul Heyman. It's like he told Jey uso, you may be the champion right now, but Seth Rollins needs to be the champion. He needs to be the champion. And you're right, that feeds into the whole heel character, the whole architect, visionary character. That. That is him. And yeah, they're toning back his attire. And I think one closing thought I'll give is they really need a name. Like, Dan had mentioned this when I saw him last week. They really need a name to this stable, that is Paul Heyman, Seth Bronson, Reed and Bron Breaker. Like, what are they called? Like, I don't know them.
[01:12:18] Speaker A: The Legion. I call them the Legion of Doom.
[01:12:19] Speaker C: Yeah. I wonder what they'll be called and when they'll have a name by or if they'll ever have a name. But, yeah, that's my closing thought.
What's the direction of that stable and are they going to make Cena any more palatable? Probably not. So the second one, you're just going to. It's a no. And the first one is really what I'm watching the show for. Like, where are they going with it? It keeps you on the edge of your seat. What are these guys going to do next?
[01:12:46] Speaker B: I think my closing thought is just keep watching as much wrestling as possible, people. Anybody watching, listening? Did not watch worlds collide on YouTube before. Money in the bank. Please go do so. And Mr. Ioana will be your new favorite wrestler.
[01:13:00] Speaker A: I agree. Luchadori's are phenomenal. And why aren't we talking about that?
[01:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, no, he. He does look like he'll be interesting. I did not watch Worlds Collide. Did you watch it, Dan?
[01:13:11] Speaker A: I watched a little of it. Those guys are crazy. I love. I love Luchadorius and I love Mr. Iguana. I love that he dances with the puppet and. And does moves with the. That. He's amazing. Yeah. So, yeah, on that note, do watch. Watch as much wrestling as possible. I agree. And read comic books. Comic books are awesome, too. So these things are very similar. So that's lowbrow. Take it easy.
